Susan Den - Non Profit Finance

Susan: 0:00

Hi, this is Susan Den and you are listening to One Hour to Doors.

Jon: 0:10

This is One Hour to Doors, a podcast about the business and soul of the festivals and events industry. I am your host, Jon Stone. Every episode of One Hour to Doors explores the people, issues, insights and trends impacting the enterprise of bringing people and communities together in common cause. We are recording today at the Totem Star Studios at historic King Street Station in Seattle. Our guest today is Susan Den. Susan is an expert in nonprofit finance, accounting and human resources. Her work tends to transform the organizations she serves, repositioning accounting and HR departments from the often mundane perception of administrative necessity to an essential partner in all aspects of an organization's work. Susan and I have worked together on a multitude of endeavors and in my consulting practice, she is my first call whenever I encounter a need for expertise in her field. Welcome to the show, Susan!

Susan: 1:11

Hi Jon, thanks for having me.

Jon: 1:13

So I have to start off. You volunteered a lot of time with the Totem Star organization a number of years ago, really contributing to setting us on a path to what is now this beautiful new studio at King Street Station. This is your first time here. What do you think?

Susan: 1:31

It is as amazing as I imagined and it is a reflection of all of the heart that has gone into arriving at this space and it leaves so much room still for what's to come next. So I'm tearing up a little bit. I'm very, very happy to be here.

Jon: 1:51

It's a pretty cool space. Wait till you get to see it activated. When did you get into finance and accounting in the first place?

Susan: 2:01

Oh, that goes back to high school Just opportunities, in particular business classes back in the day that lent to internship style jobs and then it started to evolve into a greater understanding that this is the story behind every business, regardless of its business model. I want to say it all came fairly easy for me, but I'm always happy to say that this length of time I learn something new every day. So it's a fascinating little game and story all the time, in every environment and every opportunity.

Jon: 2:46

Yeah, so you and I met. The context was we were looking for a new CFO and we did a national search and we found you. You were hiding out in Texas at the time and you were doing finance for a chain of water parks, right, and I remember in the interview process at first I thought, well, what does water parks have to do with major music festivals that we were doing at the time? And I quickly found out that they're actually more alike than not. All the essential elements are there you have staff, you have security, you have ATMs, you have admission systems, you'd have marketing sponsorship. Really, the only difference is water parks, especially down south, tend to operate in the water year round, or mostly year round, whereas all of our stuff up here in the Pacific Northwest is very seasonal. But it was a beautiful fit right off the top. I mean, the learning curve was next to nothing for you, as I recall.

Susan: 3:50

I never would have imagined. You know, I recall my original application was for a different position because I thought I was going to take a break, not work quite so much, and then the person at the time who was in charge of the search called me and said you don't want that, we want you to look at this. Otherwise, probably would not have made the connection that that particular role would be so well suited for the experience that I had had. But you're right, the relationships, when you think about entertainment of any sort, people are seeking something out and their method of getting there, the method of creating a ticket situation, access to it, the marketing behind it, the limitations to it, the risks, the human element is essentially the same.

Jon: 4:36

If you've told me before I forgot what other position were you applying for. It was an accounts payable job. Oh geez.

Susan: 4:42

Well, you know I really did accounts payable job. Oh geez. Well you know I really did. I had, you know, for many years existed in that space of doing a lot and had very young children at the time and thought maybe I would just take a little break, go back to school, learn some. You know cheese making.

Susan: 4:56

I don't know what I was thinking, but even recently I've been asked if I were going to make a change ever from one company or organization to the next, what would be the draw? And I always come back to my experience in arts and music, because accounting is laundry that every company has a need to keep moving through. But the challenges of supporting people in their work to create art and create experiences for people is just something unlike any other and that's the draw. That's the real thing. As much as I love supporting all the human services organizations that I work for as well and my heart is very much there, there's that. What have we not thought of? That's going to happen. What are you know? What are we going to encounter today? That's a new challenge and everybody gets excited about or everybody is freaking out about or having a challenge around it, kind of. I've only experienced it in arts and music.

Jon: 5:57

You just called accounting laundry, and there's certainly a laundry element to it. But you've taught me and so many others that it can be so much more if you let it be. It can be an essential part of planning and ideating, visioning.

Susan: 6:13

That certainly. I don't even think of so much as the accounting. If your accounting is well-established and the people that are tasked with keeping up with it and making sure that all the wheels are turning, that's one component of it. But then the real work is the analysis of that information, the breadth of exploration about what's behind those numbers. It's really critically important to have the right people moving the information through the system in one way or another, but it's just as important that each person understands what it is, what is their piece of it, what is their part of it, what's behind it.

Susan: 6:51

I'm not a fan of telling people just fill in this blank and fill in that blank. You know, I want people to really ask questions and understand, to see the whole picture, because that's when you can start to plan and project and caution people that you're advising and learn the history. I can look, you know I've done it everywhere I've gone, you know, with longstanding organizations, go back to the origins and you learn, you see the story, you see the evolution of how they got to where they are today and then you can also envision where they're going and hopefully support giving a little bit of a crystal ball. You know, look, this thing isn't addressed or isn't deeply understood, it could start to turn things in the wrong direction. Or if this thing were nurtured or examined or given a little bit more attention, that could actually be an incredible positive direction or growth opportunity that could actually be an incredible positive direction or growth opportunity.

Jon: 7:51

You, in my experience you're equally adept on the accounting and finance side as you are on the HR side. Is that something that's typical, or are you kind of a fluke that way, the fact that you kind of bring both aspects to the table?

Susan: 8:01

I think in small organizations it's not entirely uncommon, because people think of finance and you know, if you think of HR just from the perspective of the benefits and wages provided to the people that work with you, then at minimum you sort of default to a finance person managing all of that, because you have an assumption that it's going to be accurate, that it's going to be, you know, keeping tax laws and benefits, renewal expenses sort of in check. But I've never approached it from that point of view. You know it sounds trite or overused, but I genuinely do maintain people first. You know you cannot be successful if your people are not well supported, well cared for, given the tools that they need to do their job. And so that's where the human resources, the true human part of that, comes in for me. And some of that evolved from that finance and accounting point of view, because a lot of folks in maybe earlier in their careers might have a little bit of fear around the finance and accounting responsibilities that they have. And so I kind of chain the two together and then, when you're working with people to help them understand their responsibilities and what their contribution is to the financial health of the organization, you learn more about them. You know they begin to trust you and lean on you for some of those more traditional HR needs.

Susan: 9:30

So it's kind of a mix, I guess. So I wouldn't say that no, I'm completely an outlier. I think it's probably common to combine the two roles or to have one individual or maybe a team of a couple of folks in a small organization doing both. But I feel like I took it very seriously in the space of I'm not just here to make sure that everyone gets paid and that the taxes are filed that there's more to it than that. So I don't know that that part is that unusual. I feel like I was given a gift of being able to exist in environments that allowed me to do that.

Jon: 10:03

So talk a little bit about the organization that you're currently working with.

Susan: 10:08

I am currently the Senior Director of Finance for Treehouse, which is a wonderful nonprofit in Seattle, now statewide Washington, statewide providing service to youth in foster care. There are a number of fantastic organizations in our state and across the country that provide service to youth in care. There are a number of fantastic organizations in our state and across the country that provide service to youth in care. Treehouse's specific focus and its origins were around providing, as all nonprofits have, you know, some original origin and maybe community people just seeing a need. So it was a wonderful group of people who started ensuring that there was a gift made available to every youth in foster care during every holiday season, and from there it developed to providing other necessities, clothing and general goods, and then increased to providing the opportunity to pay for things that the youth would otherwise not have available to them. I mean literally right up to paying for their football the youth would otherwise not have available to them. I mean literally right up to paying for their football camp or their senior photos. You know things of that nature that we take for granted often that aren't available.

Susan: 11:15

And then in the last 10 or so years Treehouse has really created some incredible programs to support the youth in a program that is Graduation Success, which starts from a middle school age and sees them all the way through high school to ensure their graduation.

Susan: 11:32

The percentage of graduates has increased dramatically in that period of time Advocacy, work to ensure that the required services in each school district are made available to those youth, and then subsequent post-high school support to help them as they come out of the system, help navigate what resources are available to them. It's grown exponentially and then in the last couple of years has moved to provide service statewide for the youth. So I'm incredibly proud of being a part of that team and the work that they do. It points to what's really important and critical in our region, in our state, in our country, in our neighborhoods. You know that we want to provide opportunities for all young people, much to coming back to the work that Totem Star does, so that they have an understanding of what's available to them, that they can feel empowered, that they don't go into adulthood in fear and that in the end translates to contributors to our communities. That makes the world a better place for all of us.

Jon: 12:38

When was Treehouse founded? I should know this off the top of my head.

Susan: 12:42

Well, we're celebrating our 35th year from its origins. And how many FTE we're currently at about 220.

Jon: 12:50

Oh wow, that's a big organization and that was a huge leap from about 2019 to now. Is risk management run through the finance office or is it a whole separate thing?

Susan: 13:01

It falls under a. It's a collaborative department, if you will. That is, we turn finance and risk and we have a full-time risk director, which was a recent add up to that point, and in most of the roles that I've held, when you think of risk, I've always been the point to focus on areas of risk around. You know the traditional insurance and personnel issues, things of that nature.

Jon: 13:25

Yeah, I know you kept bringing that to my attention, like on a regular basis when we were working together, whether I wanted to hear it or not.

Susan: 13:32

One of my favorite stories and that too, I'll always tell people that I'm, by profession and somewhat by nature, risk averse, and then I will talk you out of something and then I'll end the conversation with now how do we make this happen? So one of my favorite stories was working with one of your other podcast guests, chris Weber, on a Bumbershoot programming, ask. And that was the year of all the Elvises. You'll recall that year. And Chris came to me and said this is fantastic, I've found a giant blow up Elvis head and we're going to put it on top of Fisher Pavilion.

Susan: 14:08

And I said no, you're not. And he said what? What are you talking about? I was like I am certain there's an exclusion in our insurance policy around that oh, around inflatables, absolutely yes. And he was just deflated you know bad pun. And then I sat on it for a little bit and I came back around and I said let's figure out how to make that happen, because risk is obviously something that everyone should pay close attention to, but you know you have to if you work hard to mitigate that risk and you understand what it is, and I'm not a fan of making rash decisions that ultimately could cause harm to others. But where there's a will, there's a way.

Jon: 14:46

Yeah, I mean, that's what I've learned over the years. The first step is just understanding what the risk is, which is easier said than done a lot of the time, like really holistically understanding the full extent of your exposure. But if you can get to that point, to that level of understanding, then it just becomes a puzzle to solve.

Susan: 15:07

Right, right, and you know. Coming back to the people, you know there are a lot of people in the arts that are incredibly creative and they can picture it, they can see it, they can map it out and every once in a while they have to be told we just, you know, we can't do that. That's just not something that we can either bear the cost of or the risk of, and be respectful and mindful, because they are going to be disappointed, they are going to be told no, and you want to manage it in a way that doesn't feel like you're just being punitive or choosing to tell them no when other people are told yes.

Jon: 15:43

I mean we're going through that right here at Totemstar Studios in a micro way, but it's a new space, different types of risk, working with youth. You know it takes time and attention, devoted attention, to fully understand the extent of your risk profile. Understand the extent of your risk profile. We were talking recently and you mentioned that you were doing a lot of work and putting in a lot of thought to deficit budgeting lately. Say more about that.

Susan: 16:13

Well, the boring speak. Part of it is in nonprofit accounting guidance. Until I guess we're probably about five or six years ago, the guidance changed. Most people will recall there was a time when you could do your annual fundraiser in June and ask your contributors to note that their gift was unrestricted, wasn't necessarily for a specific program, or maybe identify a program to the next year. And then you could allow board discretion to say, okay, we're going to restrict, we're going to temporarily restrict the use of those funds for next year. We're literally fundraising for next year activities. And then the IRS gap guidance changed so that we can no longer do that. You're required to recognize that revenue in the year that you've earned it.

Jon: 17:01

Right.

Susan: 17:02

So there's become this cadence of one year, as a you know, having a fantastic excess and then the next year having a deficit. But we're still trapped in that place of we can't bring a deficit budget forward to our board. They're not going to approve a deficit budget. So we need to start looking at the little bit of our history. You know what really occurred, not necessarily trick ourselves into thinking that that's going to be the cadence when you're up, when you're down. So go back in the history, look and see what was really occurring. Were you consistently presenting a balanced budget, yet your true outcome was a deficit? That also is, you know, something to sit down and understand and talk to your board about.

Susan: 17:43

Some organizations have maybe received a fantastic endowment and cash contributions early in their structure so they can weather a deficit every year. Then you need to know what does that look like? At what point, you know, will this run out? It may never run out, depending on the endowment and the earnings that support that. But we tend to like focus on the upcoming year and how we're going to manage it, how we're going to fundraise to support it, what other lines of revenue we have, what new initiatives we want to put into it. What are the expenses around that going to be? And then we come right back to that habit of like and we need to present a balanced budget. So working with your finance committee in particular to help present that to the board in a way that makes sense, because you're in it for the long run. You've been in it for the long run if you've been doing it for a long time, so understand the history, make that visible, help your staff that are part of building that budget Understand that this year we're operating lean so that we can be prepared in the next year to grow.

Susan: 18:46

And just be mindful consistently that your net asset balance is really what you're concerned about, because you're borrowing against it one year maybe when you have a deficit and then you're replenishing it the next year when you suddenly have that additional revenue for that year. In real life it's rolling. Do you have income covering your expenses or you're also contributing to you know, maybe being able to create some reserves. Are you borrowing against those reserves in one year, knowing that there'll be replenished the next year? And I've seen just so much again, especially in small organizations where they're so hyper-focused on just that upcoming year's balanced budget, that they're not actually getting their finance committee on board, aligned with them, and what's the growth going to look like.

Susan: 19:33

This is a short-term situation. Here's how we're going to overcome it and when. And that takes a lot. It takes a lot of work to get there and you have to get it to a place where you're actually speaking from a place of knowledge and trust that those numbers make sense. You know you're not doing it to manipulate the view and sort of get the outcome that you want. But moving away from that conversation of we can't have a deficit budget, I think is what all nonprofits in particular need to start considering and learning about themselves what all nonprofits in particular need to start considering and learning about themselves.

Susan: 20:05

I imagine most of Treehouse's revenue is contributed yes, it's a 60-40 contributed and public state contract. Supporting youth and foster care in particular is, and should be, a state supported, using our tax dollars to create that level of support. But of course, those dollars are heavily vied, for it's more than just caring for the youth in care, it's also systems change is critical to reducing that number and having a depth of understanding of what's causing it. I mean, we all understand many stories behind it, but getting to root causes and doing excessive systems change is where a lot of that state funding should go as well.

Jon: 20:49

What kind of trends are you seeing recently in contributed revenue in general?

Susan: 20:54

So the interesting thing, you know, as I was speaking about deficit budgets in particular, I think there's a little bit of a we're all giving ourselves a little bit of a storytelling that when the pandemic hit, that everyone was doing pretty good up to that point, and then you know we were very grateful for the PPP loans to help everyone survive. And then, if we'd all understood at the time how long it was going to go on, we could have done the one thing that it's a very rare opportunity to do, which is put everything on stop so that you can review and revise and replan and re-strategize. But you know it just, it didn't really work that way. Hindsight would be, we would have that.

Jon: 21:35

How are you going to strategize for something that you literally can't even see or comprehend or measure?

Susan: 21:40

It's only going to be two weeks, it's only going to be six weeks and you know, then we're years down. So as we all sort of came back out and back into programs and delivering on our missions, there were some defaults, back to the same habits that we had. You know, this is how you fundraise, this is what people care about, this is how people want to be engaged with, because we just needed to get it done. So I am seeing more and more examples of how the story isn't exactly true, that you know lots of organizations were struggling and they were beginning to see trends change in fundraising even before the pandemic. But you know there's also so much turnover post-pandemic so the stories change and are maybe a little bit lost. And then the new folks coming in of course have to be super focused on hit the ground and keep going forward.

Susan: 22:34

So once in-person opportunities represented themselves, there was a flurry of incredible success in community fundraising. People had a moment to recognize what they missed and what they wanted to support, and maybe they had just changes in deciding how they wanted to live their lives. I'm going to give more, do less, whatever those things were. So there was a year or two of some really wonderful giving. The in-person events were very well attended maybe record numbers of attendees and then of the few folks that I know that are working in organizations. It's kind of fundraising season, you know, between now and May or June, and attendance is low. The outreach is requiring just a different level of communication. I won't say that people aren't giving as generously, but they're certainly focusing on things that might be different than what they were focusing on pre-pandemic. So it's becoming more of a challenge. I imagine what we'll see next is how people are solving those new trends how people are solving those new trends.

Jon: 23:44

I will get some of those links to some of those articles from you and put those in the episode description for people to find. Yeah, totem Star we haven't had our annual fundraising gala since 2019. And then we didn't do it in 2020, obviously, covid and then we became singularly obsessed with our first capital campaign to build this new facility. In October October 10th It'll be our first annual gala since COVID. We have high hopes for that, but also we're not making any assumptions about how that's going to go.

Susan: 24:19

I think the traditional model is one have the right people in the room. You know the people who can show up and write a big check, raise their paddle. That's the long time model. But we've all experienced fundraisers where there are a lot of people in the room who are there because they were an invited guest of you know someone, but they're not necessarily prepared to contribute in the same way. I know all professional fundraisers know that that's not the indicator of success, because just having those people experience the program, to understand what it is you're raising funds for, is a wonderful opportunity to start, even a young person, in thinking about philanthropy and being a community supporter of different organizations. But the costs to do a fundraiser of a certain level, you know, in 200 people, 300 people, 1200 people begins to shrink your net.

Susan: 25:20

I think that the trends we'll see will be smaller gatherings, genuinely asking people how they want to be contacted.

Susan: 25:30

We have amazing donors and all they want is a phone call once a year to ask you a couple of questions about how things are going, and then they're happy to contribute and they just are not interested in that big show, so to speak, to contribute and they just are not interested in that big show, so to speak. It doesn't mean that we shouldn't be having some type of joyful community access on an annual basis or semi-annual basis to open the new minds and gain opportunities to show and showcase what the work is. We can certainly work to drive people to our websites, I mean, but all of us are bombarded every day with an email that says look at me, you know, read about my program. So I think that we're going to see a shift in that as well, that it's no longer going to be a you know, an expensive fundraiser. It can be. Totemstar is a good example. It doesn't need to cost a lot of money to invite people in to enjoy the conversation about the programs, and I think that that's a trend that we're going to see.

Jon: 26:23

Well, with Totem Star, the annual fundraiser has never been a critical source of revenue for us. Really, the main purpose for us one is to give our youth artists performance opportunity in front of a real audience. Performance opportunity in front of a real audience. Secondly, it's really it's just a chance to connect with the actual community. To us, getting some new people on board with the Totem Star mission. That's just as important, if not more important, than them, you know, writing a check for a hundred bucks or something like that. Most of our revenue comes through grants and because we're cognizant of the fact that there's not a lot of other orgs out there doing exactly what Totemstar does. So for the people for whom our mission resonates, it's not a hard sell, right? We don't have a competitive stance most of the time in our fundraising. So the gala yeah, we sure would like to generate as much money as we can with it, but really it's more just about. It's almost like an annual report to the community. I love that. That's the vibe that we want to achieve with it.

Susan: 27:39

And I think, acknowledging that as we sit inside our organizations, that maybe we fall into a place of thinking that we know who that community is. It's a little daunting to just have an open door activity, but that's where we're going to see true change and partnership opportunities and new people being curious.

Jon: 28:00

You talk about trends coming out of COVID. I can't remember if I've mentioned this to you before, but my mindset is that COVID reset everything and we won't be able to truly understand what the new normal is until three years after COVID ended. For your organization and so, like when the official end of COVID, it's different for different industries, even here at Totemstar, for example. Covid is no longer impacting our programs, but it still resonates. There's still little echoes of it that keep popping up in oddball places. But for us, I would think 2024 really, I think, will be our first year of normalcy again, and so my mindset is that we're not going to be able to say with any real objectivity what the new normal is until after 2026. We'll have three years of operating under the new normal conditions. Now we've got some actual statistics and anecdotes to look at. It's like when we start a new event, you launch a new event, you can't really judge it until you've run it for three times.

Susan: 29:18

I think it has also created the challenging of the norm, challenging of, but this is the way we've always done it. You know that some folks actually, after maybe years of routine, kind of felt a spark when they had to become very creative, and maybe there were plenty of folks who fought against it and said no, no, no, no, we can't. You know, we can't go outside the box. This is what we've always done and this is why we've done it and have maybe either had to be held accountable for that resistance or moved on or begrudgingly started to change their frame of mind around that. But I hope, my hope is that that curiosity lingers and that it's okay to have conversations around.

Susan: 30:09

I hear you, I hear that this is your view of what is going to be successful. But let's talk about it a little bit longer. We've got a little more time to really make sure that what we're committing to has been been fully vetted. And in the midst of that, what did we all learn? You can shift very, very quickly and so, like a hard commitment of this is what we're going to do, this, how we're going to behave, this is what's going to make it successful. I think there's just a lot more appetite for course correcting habits have been formed that are, we can react a lot quicker. We don't let things just sort of go down that track for an extended period of time and then find out that it wasn't working. So I think that there were some unintentional lessons learned that maybe we aren't even cognizant of, that we wouldn't even name unless we sit down to talk about it, true?

Jon: 31:03

Let's talk for a minute about something that I know you're big on, but that's transparency and finance.

Susan: 31:10

I think that you know, a person's title doesn't necessarily turn them into an expert on every subject. We all are only as good as the people that support us. We can be better by supporting them as well, and one of the ways to support them is to give as much as is reasonable in context and view to our financial situations, to our risk situations, to our challenges. I mean, how glorious is it to sit in a room full of young people, as we've experienced and talk about you know, we're just having lunch and then a challenge comes up and, in their brilliant way of just asking questions, problem solving occurs.

Susan: 31:54

Starting people early in their careers understanding financial implications.

Susan: 32:00

It doesn't mean they have to, you know, run the spreadsheets and get deep into the weeds, but having a clear view of how things work provides the opportunity for them to help contribute to problem solving.

Susan: 32:12

It gives them an understanding that just because we have the money doesn't mean we should spend the money, and they can own the decision making behind some of those things. The level of satisfaction that we will have for those people in their roles will increase, because no one likes to feel as if they're being left out of something or if they're or that they're being viewed as not being able to understand some, some levels of finance, and and then you'll you'll just find a shift, I think, in the conversations. You don't want to go into a conversation or a meeting with a group of people who have to get brought up to speed on things, or maybe just overwhelmed by the information. If you brought them along with you the entire time, then you're all kind of in the same place when you have to sit down and have difficult or joyful conversations about how financial things are working out. Joyful conversations about how financial things are working out.

Jon: 33:07

You remind me of when you and I were working with the big EDM concert promoter and when we came in there to help solve some issues. They were having the finances and the budgets behind every event and there were a lot of events. All those numbers were held pretty closely by just a couple of people at the top, and that was one thing I saw you change right away is that you made sure all of that information trickled down to everybody and the results were really profound. Just like you were saying, it's like give a little insight into the how and the why and the what, and people will tend to make use of that information.

Susan: 33:56

I mean, you think about how. That's a great example, because there were often so many critical decision-making. You know you've got four hours to decide if this thing is going to work or if we're going to pay for that, or someone made a commitment and that commitment then pushes something else aside and then you have to, of course, advise people that, by the way, this thing you were counting on has been yanked out from under you. Having the bigger context of that then keeps them from, of course, blowing up. And then now you're dealing with a completely different set of problems and a drama that didn't need to happen if they'd had a greater understanding and the other brilliance behind all of the people that we worked with.

Susan: 34:31

There is their problem solving on the fly abilities were remarkable and you know, there were times anywhere where maybe a supplier or a vendor you know was given expectations on payment date and payment time and such, and many times when someone would, you know I'd literally walk on scene and they'd fly in front of me saying I need a check now.

Susan: 34:55

Because I worked one-on-one with them so much to understand, they were empowered to say to that vendor you're going to get it as soon as you know, she can sit down and get organized here, instead of creating a situation in which now you have a vendor or supplier who is feeling as if something's not right, because it wasn't a question of something's not right, it was just a question of volume and activity and timing and communication, and they were able to contribute to those successes as well. Those successes as well. Something that I found was always successful was coaching people at all levels to understand the general cost of things. There's a lot of work that has to go into finding the right thing, and everything doesn't have to be the, you know, the golden paperclip. You can do something satisfactorily with the plain old paperclip.

Susan: 35:46

But we saw a lot of success in folks understanding how they could solicit in-kind contributions of goods or services and what was appropriate for that and how to have those conversations and how to, you know, know that at what point they could make an introduction to the people who could do that negotiation and they were so contributory there. And you know, having one in-kind intern who was meant to make all those connections and calls was not nearly as successful as everyone contributing to that and thinking those things through.

Jon: 36:14

You know you're hitting on something that I was just talking about. Earlier today I was recording a podcast with Jane Zaletsky, my old boss from OneReal, from OneReal, and we were reminiscing about the environment that was within the four walls of the OneReal offices in the 90s and throughout the entire time I was there. One of the key words he said it was this environment of extraordinary trust For an arts organization.

Jon: 36:43

We were very large yet everybody trusted everybody to an extraordinary extent, and I'd never thought about it that way. But as soon as she said that, I knew exactly what she meant and so I asked her why do you think that was Like? What caused that? That doesn't just happen by happenstance. There had to be something that brought that environment about. We struggled with trying to think about that for a couple of minutes, didn't really land on any one answer for sure.

Jon: 37:16

But listening to you now, we did practice extraordinary transparency in finance and everything else and everything else. And even if you were, such as myself in those days, the junior coordinator person, at least once a week we were sitting in an all-staff meeting 20, 30, 40 people and everybody would go around the table and speak very openly about every single challenge they were encountering, including matters of finance, and I learned a lot from that. It gave me an unusually clear understanding of what everybody else was going through and the kind of problems they were grappling with. And while we didn't always come up with solutions right then and there at the table, it just gave me this sense that, man, there were some really sharp people here and we have problems. Somehow I just knew that together we were going to figure this out, and we did regularly, time and time again, and that I think might be a key change that OneReal experienced.

Susan: 38:27

That really did was a thread that continued, because I still hold that as an example. There were times when things were stressful and difficult and especially you know, day of, of course, an event, of course an event, and people were living in a high stress situation for days or weeks prior days of and just you know, kind of losing our cool occasionally with each other and having a little knock down, drag out here and there. But the outcome was always coming back together from a place of respect, true apology, giving each other grace, you know, saying I hear you, I apologize as well. We were in the heat of a moment and that's not a, you know, a thing that is commonly experienced. You know, we tend to maybe follow, especially in the Northwest, into a more passive, aggressive approach of you know just tiptoeing around each other after something like that. But we did the work to come back to it and name it and own it, and that doesn't just happen by accident.

Jon: 39:32

That's a carryover from before my time with OneReal. That was the environment I walked into in 94 or 95 or whenever it was. Yeah, I wish I could go back in a time machine and try to figure out what exactly the genesis of that office environment was, Bottle it and sell it. Yeah, One of my favorite attributes about working with you you always ask outstanding questions, even when you don't need to. I wish that I was able to ask the quality of the questions that you do. Is that a learned skill that you have or do you have no idea what I'm talking about?

Susan: 40:09

I always picture myself speaking more than asking. You know, speaking more than listening. I hope that as time has gone on I've become a better listener. But I have also learned that, particularly in finance, you have said to me many times that all finance people are alike. When you take on a new role, you say what was that idiot before me doing? You know, I don't know if that's exclusive to our line of work, but I want to know what is behind the decision. We can't be successful.

Susan: 40:44

I certainly don't want to recommend a change to something if I don't understand its origins and I want to be respectful of the people who were part of the decision to do something in a particular way and ask questions Whereas you know accounting rules are changed. We can no longer do it that way. Or let me add an additional component in there so you have a better understanding of why I'm asking a question. I found that people just by default you know whatever environment they've been in. I don't want anyone to feel attacked.

Susan: 41:20

You know if a recommended change is made, you know I'm not holding someone responsible for something they didn't know. You know I'm not holding someone responsible for something they didn't know. So I find that asking questions is the path to educating myself on a subject and often educating the individual that I'm asking the question of, because it causes them to pause and, not supported, to say, when asked I don't know the answer to that question. Let's find out together and I think I've just taken joy in those conversations and being able to do that. You know how dull would it be to assume I know all the answers.

Jon: 42:06

That's such a beautiful statement right there and unfortunately I think a whole lot of people don't necessarily care to know all the answers, but it makes me think about how fortunate I've been over the path of my career to be, for the most part, surrounded by people that are extraordinarily curious and investigative, people that are extraordinarily curious and investigative.

Susan: 42:33

I mean I will say that someone like you I appreciate as well, because there's also the ability, because in a group of curious people we can really spend a whole lot of time, you know, getting off topic and go down some paths that are fascinating and great to explore, but you know you have the ability to bring people back to the. You know the purpose and then you know we'll parking lot those things and come back to them later. I do tend to be a little bit more distracted by fascinating conversation and want to continue to pursue just sort of how, whatever those questions lead us to.

Jon: 43:10

Reflecting on your work for the past say 20, 25 years and all the different organizations you've been with, how do you measure the impact of your work?

Susan: 43:21

Measure is difficult.

Susan: 43:23

I think that the outcomes that I would like to see is the measure of confidence from all parties, you know, confidence in the team that I'm supporting, confidence in the people in other. You know components of the organization that I've contributed to, their increased understanding of areas of their role and how that contributes to the success of the organization, particularly in nonprofit. We also have our incredibly supportive board members, finance committee members, who are dependent upon us to provide them with the picture. You know they're not sitting in our seats shadowing us doing our jobs and seeing every line item so successfully conveying the depth of understanding of what's happening to a committee who maybe only meets four times a year, so that they can take their commitment seriously and know that they're not at risk of being blindsided by information that wasn't shared with them. So I think the confidence that comes away in conversation with people, even if they were to leave an organization to say you know that organization might have been struggling, that organization might have been flourishing, but what I do know is that they were in good hands.

Jon: 44:51

I think you're brushing up against mentorship as well. I know that's something that has been very important to you over the years is helping the next generation come up, come along.

Susan: 45:03

You know finance and accounting some folks might think is terribly boring. You know it doesn't need to be boring. Working in an organization doesn't need to be boring. I mean, I've had opportunities for people to say you know, the other finance folks you know just stayed behind closed doors. So anyone that I mentor or reports to me or I'm supporting in some way, I want to push them out there, you know. Push them outside their comfort zone.

Susan: 45:30

And we're not just all about the numbers. You need to understand the depth and the breadth of the business and in the world that we're working in. In the end I don't want to work forever. You know I'm a Girl Scout, mom and leader and the way of leave something better than you found it, one of the ways to do that is to hand it off, you know, to the next stewards of that work, so purposefully. In the end no one's going to remember you know what balance sheet I presented, but I hope that they'll see the legacy of any number of people that are working in professional capacity, that that I coached and encouraged to not just be a typical accounting and finance person. Who's who's just looking at numbers on paper, because it's never just numbers on paper. There's so much more than that.

Jon: 46:23

Exactly, exactly, in the wild and wacky world of festivals that you've traveled with me. What are two or three of your proudest accomplishments, or maybe even just your favorite memories? I know there's a lot of ground to cover there. Yeah, yeah, do your best.

Susan: 46:41

That goes back to the accounting, is the laundry. There were so many challenges. You know there was a year that the accounting system went down. You know, two days before the festival. Generations that are heavily dependent upon technology, that you know. Sometimes you just have to figure it out. So those are, those are proud moments of setting the example, of the flight, not just. You know stomping around and saying, well, this is a problem that can't be solved. You know bringing everybody along. We have to laugh when those things occur.

Susan: 47:33

There was a year out at the Gorge, you'll recall, a festival when it was record heat and we had to solve for getting ice. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, that was tough, right. Yeah, it's not just go to your local 7-Eleven. There was no ice to be had in the region. We literally had to. I think we hijacked a delivery truck driver and said, well, will cash work, can you go? Literally drove back to Seattle to get pallets of ice for us. But again, I mean, there was that mix. Of this is critical. People could actually, you know, be put at medical risk by not having water and ice, and it was.

Jon: 48:12

There were people dropping like flies Right. It was scary. I remember that we had to. We got so hot one day we had to suspend work. It was just. It was past the point of common sense. And then we had to switch to working at night instead to stay on schedule, which was a completely separate set of problems. If I recall, we got lucky because it was a full moon or near full moon, so we could see what we were doing.

Susan: 48:42

But yeah, yeah, it would have taken us days to set up, to have the lighting, and we didn't have days.

Jon: 48:47

That's a great example, because some festivals of that size, that's year-round planning, so a whole year's worth of planning goes up in smoke just because of the temperature.

Susan: 48:58

What are you going to do To be able to say, when someone's concerned, are we going to be able to make this happen? To, just in the moment, say yes, just do this, literally yes, take cash, hand it to this person, unknown person, and make them run for us and and just trust that you know we were all doing everything that we could for the right reasons, and that you know we were. We're not going to be fired the next day for for making a decision like that.

Susan: 49:26

So it's a it's a it's not for everyone, that level of stress you know in the moment and problem solving, and then you know crashing hard the next day.

Jon: 49:37

But there's that word trust again. Now I'm getting kind of locked in on that. I had mentioned recently that one of the aspects about event work, especially concert work or one-off, single-day work, is that by default we have to have an ability to judge a person we've never met really quickly, like within minutes, like you got the first five or 10 minutes of the morning when the touring production crew steps off the bus or whatever it is. But we have to make a judgment about this person and how we're going to work together, and along with that comes a degree of trust. We're rolling into a new venue and here's the house riggers. Here's one of these jobs where, if they don't do their job right, people can die, many people can die all at once. And so again, do I trust this person? And how do you go about that? I don't know.

Jon: 50:38

It's a skill, it's a sense that I think we just develop over time in the industry. It's important. So when you're talking about, all of a sudden, even in a major festival, in a remote location, and things start going sideways and so we just have to start punting, punt left, punt right, tossing money around, but there's this through it all. There's this thread of inherent trust that everybody's doing. Hopefully they're making the right decision, but even if they're not, they're doing the best that they can and knowing that we'll come out the other end, you know, okay, I think in those environments there are probably other industries that are similar.

Susan: 51:18

Those are the you'll say. These people are our people. You know, they're one of us, they get it. They get it. And there are people who might work in the environment who recognize that it isn't the kind of extreme situation that they want to put themselves in over and over again. I mean here we are talking about it as if it's, you know, right in insanely difficult or stressful, and there are moments of it, but there's also moments of great joy and very relaxed successes as well. But I think it's a personality type to be there every once in a while.

Susan: 51:55

The other thing I'm thinking of is sometimes you will bring someone in on that moment of trust because your time is so short and midstream or midday or activity, you recognize that you didn't make the best decision and you have to make an immediate decision to dismiss them from that role or the activity. And that is another piece of it is even with that, yes, it puts additional burden on either yourself or other folks, but there's also that trust that, for being short of that set of hands, everything will still work out, everyone will still be able to to work together to solve things. So I think it's a, it's a bit of a learned experience, because look at the people who maybe came into the environment for the first time. I, you know, use interns as an example and you know they, they know what they know, or they have an idea about its glamour, an idea about its glamour, and they very quickly, very quickly, catch up to. Oh, this is different than what I thought, but I can do this because that's the examples that are being set around them.

Susan: 52:59

I think, when specifically focusing on festivals, arts, music, one thing that we've talked about is, I think you would agree that we don't want to be the keepers of the mold. It's not for us to say what's coming next or how things should be managed next. I remember the fascination of the wristbands. You know let's move away from cash and let's move to other things. And then you know people. You know that's not going to work. That's, you know, terrifying let's. You know, trust the next iteration of incredible minds and creative people and much more brilliant than I could ever be accountants and financial analysts. To, to, to do what they're going to do. Let them, let them go their way. I, you know, if we're lucky enough to have them come to us and ask us for advice or input or or anecdotes to share. We want to do that, but I don't think that we want to ever try to squash their brilliance, their ability or their need to make mistakes and figure out things that we could never possibly have imagined.

Jon: 54:03

Absolutely. What's your favorite sound Water?

Susan: 54:08

in its many forms. Water running in the tap, water lapping, you know, gently on a beach rain.

Jon: 54:20

You're getting an ice cream cone with two scoops. What are the flavors?

Susan: 54:25

You know it's pistachio and coconut. They're brilliant together and neither one of them are something that I'm going to create day-to-day access to on my own. You know you're in an ice cream shop and if somebody's going to do it right, I'm going to let the experts do it. Which?

Jon: 54:46

flavor goes on top Coconut Excellent, Susan. Thanks for making the time today.

Susan: 54:53

Thank you, john. It's always a pleasure. All call. One hour, two doors.