Renee: 0:00

This is Renee Munholand and you're listening to One Hour Till Doors.

Jon: 0:12

This is One Hour Till Doors, a podcast about the business and soul of the festivals and events industry. I am your host, Jon Stone. Every episode of One Hour to Doors explores the people, issues, insights and trends impacting the enterprise of bringing people and communities together in common cause. Our guest today is Renee Munholand, a certified first-call high-rigger based here in Seattle. Her highly specialized work takes her from the stage roof at the Gorge Amphitheater to the arches above Lumen Field in Seattle and from touring with the Weeknd to the Super Bowl. Welcome to the show, Renee, thank you. So, Renee, you and I have worked on I don't know how many gigs together over the years, but I was thinking about this this morning. But I was thinking about this this morning. We've never really sat down and had long conversation because at the gigs, either I'm preoccupied with something or you're at least 60 or 80 feet over my head, yeah, so it's great to have an opportunity to just sit here at ground level together.

Renee: 1:20

Yes.

Jon: 1:21

It's taken many years to get to this point. Yeah, how do you describe your job to the layperson?

Renee: 1:29

Well, I will just start off by saying that I build concerts and I'll just add in, maybe, that I also do conventions. You know, I work at height, or I will guide the crews that are working at height, and I'll be like you see everything up in the air.

Jon: 1:52

I put it there. Yeah, that's the way I describe the trade to others. You are the people who are responsible for everything that's hanging over your head.

Renee: 2:00

Yeah.

Jon: 2:01

What's your origin?

Renee: 2:01

story Where'd you grow up? Yeah, what's your origin story? Where'd you grow up? So I was born in Renton, actually, and my father, he, was employed at Boeing. Oh, what did he do at Boeing? He was an electrical engineer and I guess, from what I understand, he would fly with the planes in different conditions and check the gauges and whatnot.

Jon: 2:25

Okay, yeah, so test flight.

Renee: 2:27

Yeah, and then we moved to the Tri-City area. My brother was born there. I have a little brother and my parents divorced when I was like five and then my dad gained custody of my brother and I and moved us to the Portland area. So I lived in Tualatin and Hillsborough, Oregon, and then after that we lived there until I was about 14. And it wasn't like the best of situations. I love my dad but we kind of needed mom. So I kind of had to go to court against him to live with my mother and I haven't seen him since. But then my mom did gain custody of us and we moved back to the Tri-City area. After high school I've lived in Stanfield, Oregon, Hermiston, Oregon and Umatilla, Oregon, and then I married and had my daughter and we moved up to Yakima and then his job took us to Ellensburg, Washington, and then, when we decided that we wanted to go our separate ways, I moved up here, back up here to Seattle. So you've been all over the Northwest. Yeah, I'm totally a Northwest girl.

Jon: 3:54

At what point did you decide to get into the entertainment industry?

Renee: 3:59

That's so funny. In like 2008, when the economy crashed, we had moved to Ellensburg and I got a job with a dentist. I had gone to college shortly after my daughter was born and I got certified in dentistry. I was working in Yakima and driving back and forth from Ellensburg to Yakima every day until I'd gotten a job in Ellensburg, and usually in a dental office, the staff like their doctor, you know, they stay with them for a long time and there was only like a couple of dentists in the Ellensburg area. There were some changes in the office I was in and I ended up getting laid off and you know, I think there was like three dentist's office there and all of the staff were from Ellensburg and like stayed there. So there's no openings. So I needed a job.

Renee: 4:54

I had a family and a stagehand job came across my job searching and I went for it and it was so funny. I didn't know, you know at all anything about the industry, so I was really worried. I wanted the job very badly. I always joked around to people that I probably have paid enough money in concerts to have like put myself through like a four year college degree, four-year college degree. But I found this job and I was like, oh my gosh, I don't have experience. Oh, are they going to hire me? Oh my gosh, what's going to happen? Oh my gosh, I just hope I get this job.

Renee: 5:35

And not knowing anything about it, I think I like they had a question for me, the employer, they asked me something and I was like telling them my anxiety and stuff, like, oh my gosh, and they're like, don't worry about it. And they looked at my email and they were like, you're going to get along just fine with us. I have a silly email that is like the world's oldest email, but it has some numbers in it that make it funny, and so they thought I would, you know, fit right in. And so at the same time when I started there, I also had to transition to a different career in ophthalmology, and so I went from dentistry to ophthalmology, which is working for an eye doctor, and then I did stagehanding on the side. So that's kind of how I got in.

Renee: 6:30

So how'd you go from stagehand to rigging, in particular, Well, I'll never forget, like right away when I started as a stagehand, I worked mostly out at the gorge because I was only about a half an hour 45 minute drive from there and the riggers that were there they had, you know immediately said, like maybe I should try rigging and I was very cautious about it. I'm like I don't know if I would enjoy heights. I don't know, you know, if this is really for me. Like I just kind of was new in the industry and to me it wasn't about money at all. Like, really to this day, my job really isn't about money. I just enjoy it and I want to love it and I love seeing, no matter what kind of job I do, it being an ice capades to like some convention or anything. I really take a lot of pride in seeing the people enjoying it. Right, that they really are enjoying it.

Renee: 7:35

I kind of just brush that aside and just focused on being a stagehand and being happy and also working. And then my daughter she was young and my husband. So I was really overwhelmed, like I would started working to the point where I didn't ever get a day off and I was just working every day. But then when I wanted to rig. I felt like I wanted growth and I was like I'm ready to try that now. And when I said I was ready, it took me a while. It was like after a couple of years in the industry I was like ready to go and I had to fight tooth and nail just to get in. It was hard.

Jon: 8:28

Say more about that.

Renee: 8:29

You know, to get a class so that I could have the training for fall protection. I would never know when they were, they would never invite me to them, you know. So I'm talking to the rigger, the rigging manager, constantly. I'm like, hey, I want to do this, tell me when there's a class. I was told that, and here in Washington State, especially like here in Seattle, there is an exceptional amount of female riggers comparatively to the rest of the country. Right, it's not very common that you see female riggers.

Jon: 9:05

I was going to ask about that.

Renee: 9:06

Yeah, but we had a lot. I mean, there was probably a good handful of them that I could name that were working as riggers at the time, and so I had confronted my rigging manager and I'm like, hey, I want to take the class. And I swear this guy. He's like I don't know what it is about some of the men sometimes in rigging specifically, but they're just awkward. I think they just really don't know what to say and like, maybe they don't have.

Renee: 9:41

They didn't have, like this particular person didn't have the capacity for trying to get me in. I mean, I had a full-time job, right, I didn't live here in Seattle, so like how is that going to benefit them on a large scale when they really just need people, when they need them, right, and to put that effort in and I gonna make it right? Like am I gonna stand the test of time? Because that is a huge thing for new riggers. We can hire and train and get a large quantity of people who think they want to do it, but then when they really see the job and they really understand it, they're like, oh, I don't want to do this.

Jon: 10:23

Yeah, that makes sense to me. I mean, I'm projecting here, but rigging is one. It's intensely physical, more so than just about any other gig. There's a lot of training, more so than most any other gig, and that training is crucial. So that's a big investment in whoever's doing the training and then just the raw trust that has to happen. You're holding people's lives and livelihoods in your hand every minute of every day. I get that there's a filtration process of sort, yeah, yeah.

Renee: 10:55

You know, and I mean even just in the industry overall, even if you just start off as a stagehand, you know it's funny, so I went through 2008. Just start off as a stagehand, you know it's funny, so I went through 2008. And the funny part about getting hired into the industry during that time is that you know the economy crashed. So are people spending money on entertainment? No, they're not, right, they can't even afford their mortgage, right, everybody's losing their houses, they're losing their jobs. And it was really kind of funny that I got hired during that time period, because then it ramps up and then, when it ramps up, all of a sudden we need people, right, we need people and so we get people. But like it's really tough to navigate, just in the industry overall, how to make this a successful career, how you can survive off of it, because it's not a Monday through Friday, nine to five job. That's guaranteed work. You have to hustle, you have to get your name out there, get the seniority, you have to get all the other jobs and you have to make sure you know you're making the right choices and picking the right jobs, and like making the money right in order to get money coming in on a regular basis. That's one thing about rigging, but I'd say it's a little more on an upper scale than stagehanding. Because, yes, there is an element at some point not always not when you start, but at some point there is a level of skill and knowledge that you can bring to the table which makes you very valuable and hireable. Like they need you. We need someone who can think rather than just be a monkey and pull a rope, you know.

Renee: 12:42

And so this particular gentleman that I'm inquiring about getting in. First of all, my personality is over the top bubbly, right. I'm always happy I'm showing up to work. I love everyone hugging, everyone saying hi, I know everybody's names. I'm like, you know, I'm stepping out of this career of like ophthalmology, where you know I'm checking, and out of this career of like ophthalmology where you know, I'm checking people's eye pressure and their eyeglasses, prescription and their health and all of this stuff. And then I'm going and this is my fun time, right? So my impression on the people that I'm working with they're like, oh, she doesn't like take this seriously, right? Like she's not, and no one's ever really told me that. But I can kind of step back from myself and think that about myself, you know, at the time. So. So the answer that I get from this this rigging manager is he said you know, like girls can't really do this job.

Renee: 13:42

Oh, job and you know, really it's like you know, I don't you know, he, yeah, he said something about how I'm a girl and I probably can't do it, or something like that, and I just like.

Jon: 13:59

And this was in our lifetime that you're hearing this.

Renee: 14:01

Yes, and like I said again, like we had over like a handful of female riggers at the time right.

Jon: 14:09

Yeah.

Renee: 14:11

And I was like what the hell? And I went through this through my mind, rigging manager and I like it's very rare that I've ever turned someone in for like inappropriateness right. But but also, you know, I'm like, I called up the, the HR, and I, and I'm like you know, this guy told me that I can't do it because I'm a girl.

Jon: 14:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah and.

Renee: 14:43

I just said. You know I'm not like you know, a lawsuit person or anything, but you know he probably shouldn't be saying that response. He can think it, but he shouldn't be saying something like that. He was like the most socially awkward. Like it just accidentally comes out right and if that's really what he thought or not, I don't know, I'm not in control of that, but I have to say I think maybe calling the HR kind of they're like we better give her a shot right Might have bumped them into the 21st century right, might have bumped them into the 21st century.

Renee: 15:29

Yeah, no, I still know them.

Jon: 15:30

We're friends. I don't know. I mean, look everybody in our line of biz, we've all got really thick skin.

Renee: 15:36

Yeah.

Jon: 15:37

And we all love to talk, smack, yeah A lot. That's just kind of part of the trade, I suppose. But what you're describing is just over the top.

Renee: 15:48

I just I couldn't believe it. But I think what it is is just that lack of sociability to like to maybe just say no, like not really know how, to how to get that out verbally to somebody with it just came out that way, like it just came out inappropriate. Now I'm not like giving him a pass, but it's like already in the past right and so I've already, like I decided I wasn't going to let that stop me.

Renee: 16:22

I'm driven right and that's not going to stop me. I just kept moving forward and I kind of laughed at it. It was funny, it was really pretty funny.

Jon: 16:35

So, since you've opened up this whole can of worms here and everything I'm about to say, I'm saying at least partly tongue in cheek. I know many of your colleagues and there's a I'll just call it a stereotype, but in my, from my perspective, riggers on average tend to be one of the grumpier type crews. Maybe they're not grumpy amongst yourselves, but they're grumpy with everybody else. But you've always been different. Like I've never seen you grumpy. Every time I'm looking, you seem to be having a good time enjoying your work.

Renee: 17:06

Oh yeah.

Jon: 17:07

Even towards the end of the 18-hour day you always appear to be happy as if it were only the first couple hours of the call, whereas on average most everybody else in the trade. As the day goes on, kind of that attitude starts to sink With, you know, just exhaustion.

Renee: 17:23

Yeah.

Jon: 17:24

Physical, emotional, but you seem to be immune to that somewhat.

Renee: 17:28

Yeah, it's my preferred feeling Like. I just prefer to be happy and I like to have a bright outlook on things. Oh, that's fantastic so you know, I guess I'm like. There's a lot of people their cups are half full and mine's full. You know, that's how I feel.

Jon: 17:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it has an impact on the job site, especially in the latter half of the day. It just takes one or two people who are openly displaying a good, happy, positive mood Kind of lifts everybody up for that final push. Or, conversely, if you don't have that, if everybody just gets progressively grumpier, it's like this downward spiral. Yeah, you know to where it gets really hard to cross that finish line. Roll down the last door on the truck or whatever. Yeah, you know to where it gets really hard to cross that finish line. Roll down the last door on the truck or whatever. Yes, do you work mostly locally? I know you have done some touring, but are you?

Renee: 18:26

mostly local. Do you travel around? I'm kind of mostly local. I do enjoy traveling around. Like when you mentioned, I do enjoy traveling around. Like when you mentioned, like when I worked the Super Bowl that was in Glendale Arizona, I actually went there and stayed with my brother and I worked for like a month, I think I had two days off. That was fun, I loved it. And I've gone down to San Diego and I worked. I had a friend working this particular gig and I wanted to work it. So I just got a hold of my boss and I said, hey, can I? I'm going to be down there, Can I work? And they were like, yeah, sure, and then I also have toured. I mean, I have to say that that is what I really want to do, touring. Yes, that is what I'm here for.

Renee: 19:15

Why, like, I want a tour? There's so many reasons for me and a lot of people, a lot of people I'm surrounded by, they hate it, they don't like it. They're like you won't like it. And, honestly, my first, the one tour that I've been on the Weeknd, you know I enjoyed it, I had a great time and I was probably spoiled. Like in that particular tour, I was probably really spoiled compared to like always touring life, but I have nothing really keeping me here. I love to explore.

Renee: 19:52

As far as like travel and all that kind of stuff, I'm a minimalist, so I don't have a lot Like, I mean my. When you walk into my apartment right now, it is it's like a hotel, like the bed's made, all the dishes are clean, all the four dishes that I own. I just get to be in what I love to do and I like it because I work with different people all the time. I'm working with a whole new set of faces. I love meeting people and getting to know them and I learn from other people too, and I learn from other people too, and it's always a learning experience. Like just the new, like venue or any of that. I like fresh and new and keep going and and and like the focus on work.

Renee: 20:45

I don't have to worry about how am I going to get to work, right, I'm there, I wake up, somebody's like there's breakfast over there. I go, eat some breakfast, you know, and then go straight to work. And then, you know, go rest or whatever. The more I work, just stationary here or whatever, I love my people. Don't get me wrong.

Renee: 21:09

People Don't get me wrong, but there is a level of politics that I am just not built for. You know, I'm not here to be political, I just want to go to work and I want to do my job and I want to enjoy it and, yes, I want to be paid right. But I end up getting in the middle of some of these politics and it's weird. I think I've slipped through cracks, because a lot of times I don't have these complaints that other people have about things. Like I just like, oh, I don't like that. Well then, I'm just going to go over here, you know, and maybe that's not so good, I need to stand up for my coworkers or whatever, and I try and I do the best that I can. But, like, honestly, I'm not here to make those kind of statements. I want to get on the road, I want to enjoy my job, I want to enjoy the people I'm working with and I'm seeing different things.

Jon: 22:11

What's the ratio of the type of gigs you're working these days? I mean, you're doing concerts, you're talking about sports. I imagine you're probably doing some corporate stuff here and there. What's the mix like for you?

Renee: 22:24

Well, I have moved downtown Seattle so I live downtown and I no longer have a car. So that is actually been a very beautiful thing for me. It has kind of helped me with work-life balance and I work basically whatever's the closest and you know it also pays more. Whatever's closest to me actually pays me more. It's kind of a 50-50. I work a lot of Climate Pledge, I work a lot of Convention Center, and so those are about the two things that I do. Since the pandemic has kind of lifted and they've opened the new side of the Convention Center, they've been pushing a lot of gigs through those buildings.

Jon: 23:14

Yeah, yeah.

Renee: 23:15

They are, I think, one of the only places in the country it may have changed a little bit but that require this ETCP certification that I do have. That kind of gives you a higher pay.

Jon: 23:32

What's the ETCP certification?

Renee: 23:35

It's Entertainment Technician Arena Rigging. That's horrible, I don't remember.

Jon: 23:45

Oh sorry, I get the idea.

Renee: 23:46

Yeah, but it's. Is it a national certification or yes, it's specific to our country? Really, it's a test on, like, overall knowledge. You have to memorize things like what hardware limitations are, so like a certain shackle can handle this much weight, and what the breaking strength is of it. The rigging industry in entertainment is probably the safest, the most scrutinized in the fact that we scrutinize everything that we do, versus like ironworking or even crane lifting or even ship rigging, because we're hanging these things over people's heads Right. You memorize the different pieces of hardware that you use, what their capabilities are. There's also a lot of math, because when you make a point I don't want to get too deep into it, but sometimes we have to bridle where a motor point is, and so there's a lot of math involved as far as where the point is going to land on the ground and how you're going to make that bridle, and also weight distribution how much is this leg of the bridle going to have. You have forces. How is that bridle leg going to pull on that beam and what are the forces on it? There's just a multitude of math, a lot of math.

Renee: 25:15

Yeah, Harry Donovan, who was from this area, he kind of started this ETCP thing. In a respect he was giving out classes in rigging. I had just missed him. I wanted to sign up for a class but it was like thousands of dollars to sign up for one of his classes that he taught and then he passed away of cancer, so I never got a chance. But I do work a lot with some of the people that worked around him and helped him and also, you know, helped develop. You know the way we rigged the modern day trade yeah.

Renee: 25:57

And basically it's a test. There's levels of rigging. So you know when you start off, you know, you learn how to use your harness, you learn how your lanyards work and you learn rope management and you go up and you're brawn. You're just muscle and brawn and you're just pulling 100 pounds up to a grid, depending on the height, and then if you want to go beyond that, I mean it's basically self-propelled. You know. If you want to move further than that and you're really like, well, how does this work? Why am I doing it this way? Then you school yourself and that's one way of doing it.

Renee: 26:39

If you get that certification, it falls in certain applications. Some people want to see it, but I also hear a lot of derogatory things about the certification, in which I have experienced some of the other side in some aspects and which an example would be there was a kid that we hired in our industry and he had worked in construction and had done crane rigging. You need 3,000 hours of rigging before you qualify to take the test and then the kid had gotten his 3,000 hours. From that he was really bright and he memorized everything and he went and took the test and he got an arena riggings ETCP, but he's never rigged in entertainment like a day in his life.

Jon: 27:29

Oh, I see what you're saying.

Renee: 27:30

Yeah, when he walked in the door and he's got this ETCP certification and he's like, yep, I want to be a rigger. So we throw, you know the company throws him in and you know he has no idea. He has no idea what a bowling's for. Why do we tie a bowling? You know you got to throw it over the beam, put your foot in it so that you can use both hands to make your point.

Jon: 27:58

Oh, that's interesting. I hadn't thought about that, because in all your different types of rigging and rigging environments there are a lot of constants. I mean, the math is always the same.

Renee: 28:08

Well, no, there's like about different ways of doing the same math, about different ways of doing the same math.

Jon: 28:13

But there is a lot of very unique, to some extent intangible aspects of the entertainment industry where the only way you're really going to learn that is just by being there and doing it and putting in the time.

Renee: 28:28

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think that some people's complaints about the ETCP are that it's bureaucracy, right, so you get this certification and then it's not easy to get at all.

Jon: 28:39

Well, I think that ultimately, I think that's good right.

Renee: 28:42

Yes, yes, and I enjoyed it. I really enjoyed studying for it. I'm kind of nerdy like that. I do really love my job and I always have more questions and I always want to know more, and so it's not an easy test but it does kind of guide you in that further and beyond.

Renee: 29:02

A lot of riggers that start out, you know, they get on the ground and they don't know you plug a motor cable into a motor and then that motor cable goes into a distro, a motor and then that motor cable goes into a distro and in order for that distro to run you have to power it and in order to run the motors you've got to have a pendant. There's just so many, so many variables and things to learn about that. I just did a convention center gig and I was a production rigger and we had a lot of new riggers from through our union that were there and they're great, they want to learn, they're hard workers, you know, but they had no idea. You give them a cable and they're like what, what is this? How does this work? And so the flow of work.

Renee: 29:49

You know if I just stop everything and I'm like, okay of work. You know if I just stop everything and I'm like, okay, let me give you a breakdown of how this all works really quickly, then they learn it. And then you're like, okay, let's go do the next trust. Now I don't have to stop and tell you. You know exactly how this all works. This is what I want done. Go do it Right, and then they do it.

Jon: 30:09

This part of the conversation right now is just the other. I was doing a podcast session with Pyro Rick. Yes, yes. And we might actually we might have wound up talking about you in part of that, but we're talking about I see a parallel with Pyro and rigging to where it's a really you have to be really selective in your staffing. Yeah, and just a level of trust in your staffing. Yeah, and just a level of trust. There's zero margin for error. Yeah, For obvious reasons.

Renee: 30:37

Right, absolutely, I would not want to burn or blow up. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I love Rick. I've known him for a long time. Oh, he's one of the best. Yeah, he's one of the best All of events.

Jon: 30:52

concerts in particular, kind of infamous for long hours. But in your role in particular, how do you balance that reality with safety and quality control, just in terms of keeping clear-headed and crossing all your T's and dotting all your?

Renee: 31:08

I's. So you're like and this is how I kind of started you know, like I would rig at Clark County right, which is in southwestern Washington close to the Oregon border. You know we had a little venue there. So I work 8 am, maybe four hours, and then I've got the whole day off and then I have to come back at night or I might run spotlight, but that's one decision too. Maybe you don't run spotlight and then you come for loadout and you climb up there, take it all down and then you've got. You have to drive to the Gorge Amphitheater, which is like a four-hour drive, and you got to work at 8 am and you just got off work at 2. And you get in the car and you drive all the way there.

Renee: 31:58

This is a part of like the hustle right In the beginning when you're new and you're trying to get in and you're just trying to survive and you just take naps whenever you can. You just got to make sure you eat, make sure you're getting those naps in in those big gaps time. And this is rock and roll. You have a late loadout, early morning loadout and you've got to go do a load in the next day somewhere else or even in the same venue. Right, you're still limited to time and you know, I just say like when you're younger it seems all right you make it. Now that I'm a bit older, I'm glad that I'm not doing as much of that anymore. I mean, I still work long hours and stuff A lot of it's corporate coffee, making sure you go to bed For me. Like I'm not going to suggest anybody else, but one thing that helps me like I'm sober. So no alcohol anything like that.

Jon: 33:01

That doesn't surprise me at all.

Renee: 33:02

For me that helps, because then you wake up refreshed and everything I don't know, in that determined mind, you just do it.

Jon: 33:10

Responsibility is kind of the key theme that I'm hearing from you, yeah, and you know a lot of it's.

Renee: 33:14

Muscle memory Right mind, you just do it. Responsibility is kind of the key theme that I'm hearing from you. Yeah, and you know a lot of it's muscle memory. You know it's like okay, I'm doing the same thing and if I do it in the steps, I'm not going to miss anything.

Jon: 33:25

I would imagine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine you and your colleagues are checking each other's work as you go along as well.

Renee: 33:32

Yeah, yeah, and we are so ridiculously safe though and I'm not saying that as a complaint or anything but even in the chance that something wasn't right, it's still probably going to be okay. We have safety factors, you know, and a lot of things that we use over people's heads. They have to have like a 10 safety factor. So if, like, a shackle can hold and that's a buffer, so if it can hold 2,500 pounds and we whittle it down to like a 10th of that, Right, You're only going to load it with 200, or yeah?

Jon: 34:12

yeah, yeah.

Renee: 34:12

I mean because we have shock load, Yep and all of those things, which is all variable. Those are all question marks in the air. So if something is connected to that shackle and it jumps in the air five times, it's always going to be a different weight. You don't know what that is.

Jon: 34:29

Commercial airplanes are the same way. You're mentioning Boeing and your father's career at Boeing early on. I've had family at Boeing as well and I know that these days in particular, like any new commercial airplane, it will never in its lifetime see one-tenth of the stress that it can actually handle in terms of aerodynamic stress. There's no way you could possibly stress it more than 10% of its rating.

Renee: 34:55

Yeah, and I've worked there and hung things in Boeing both in Everett and down here in Georgetown.

Jon: 35:04

The Everett plant's cool it's so big.

Renee: 35:06

Yeah, I love it when they roll the planes in. Yeah, yeah, that's always a great time. We get to see the coolest stuff that nobody else gets to see Boeing planes and stuff like that we get to see. You know, all of that stuff that it's not like and we call people who aren't in our industry muggles.

Renee: 35:27

They just don't understand right, dating is incredibly hard because I have a load in and then I have a load out, so and they're like what is that? You know, people are like what you know how does that work?

Renee: 35:38

And and then on top of it, I swear we have some of the most genius people that we work with. I mean, they've invented things that are used outside of this industry, right, but like it's been invented, it's so amazing. There's like this really great documentary thing about the Grateful Dead, you know, and they toured around and I've seen them a few times before Jerry died. I mean part of my music passion. Right Early off when they started, I mean they kind of pioneered rigging. They decided they wanted to hang their audio right.

Jon: 36:15

They pioneered more than most people realize.

Renee: 36:18

Right, they're like we want to hang this audio. Well, let's get this crappy rope and some block and falls and we're going to climb around without a harness.

Jon: 36:27

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Renee: 36:27

You know, and the weight of these things are just, oh God, it was like lifting a dinosaur, right. You know, and that documentary is wonderful. And I mean these audio engineers, just everybody, they just love their job so much and they're so nerdy, they're married to their job.

Jon: 36:52

Right, that's what's kept me in the business my entire adult life. Really, that's what has pushed me to start this podcast is that, at the end of the day, I just love the people. It's a bunch of goofballs, it's a bunch of wackos, yep, but damn it, I love them, I just love everybody. I'm trying to share some of the people. I guess that's you included. Oh, thank you.

Jon: 37:14

Trying to share these beautiful people with the Muggles, yeah, yeah and to share some of ourselves just even with each other, you know, yeah, because there's so many trades where we're all working under the same roof together on any given day, but we don't always have the opportunity to really understand. That's one of the opportunities that I've been blessed to have, like in a producer role. I get to stand back and watch all the different pieces working together and orchestrate that. It just gives me an even broader appreciation for the whole thing, and then every person that's involved with it takes everybody.

Jon: 37:53

Everybody.

Renee: 37:53

There are no marginally important roles in the business, right, but it's tough. Even if you're just a box pusher, you know that box could be a thousand pounds and you might be pushing it up the gorge ramp and it might be 110 degrees out and you're in all black.

Jon: 38:12

And none of that matters. It's got to get done.

Renee: 38:14

Get your water. I see it countless times. That's one thing too. I kind of like sometimes about being a rigger, because, especially when we get a lot of new people, I'm like busy doing my job in a respect, and I don't really get to know people now until they're staying around. Because you know, I don't know how many times we've had a bunch of people come out to whatever gig it could be anywhere and they're like oh my God, I didn't realize I was going to have to down stack boxes out of a back of a semi. This isn't really what I pictured, you know. And then they move on.

Renee: 38:51

They're like you know, I'd rather make burgers or whatever it is, you know, each their own.

Jon: 38:56

Yeah, exactly, I totally get it.

Renee: 38:58

Exactly, but there is a certain tenacity you have to have in order to make this into something that's sustainable financially and for you. But you also a lot of people get very, very wrapped up in it and they forget, like when the pandemic hit, oh my God, my mental wellness was showing itself. I just did not have good mental health. The only thing I had was my job. And then, all of a sudden, nothing Like oh, what am I going to do? I can't talk to anybody, I can't do anything, I'm not going anywhere. How is this going to work out? I wasn't necessarily so much worried about finances, it was just the whole like I'm extremely social, but I'd never had to look at myself in the mirror before.

Jon: 39:48

Social, but I'd never had to look at myself in the mirror before I understand what you're saying 100%. In some of my prior episodes I talk about this, but when the pandemic hit and all of a sudden I'm just sitting around at home, forbidden from doing what I do, from doing what I've done my entire adult life, and for me it was just a flat-out identity crisis.

Jon: 40:10

After enough time I mean the first few months I was like okay, I'm going to get government relief money to sit around and great, but over time it wore me down more and more and more until eventually I got to the point where, I guess for the first time, I thought about how much of my identity I've tied up in my occupation, how much of my identity I've tied up in my community. Yeah, and so, taking that away, all of a sudden, it's like I don't. It was hard for me to understand who I even am anymore, and enough time went by and it's like it wasn't even clear when you know, we didn't know when it was going to pick back up or even if, for that matter, yeah, and it really, it really did a number on me.

Renee: 40:52

Yeah.

Jon: 40:52

Really did a number, so I hear what you're saying.

Renee: 40:55

Yeah, that was crazy, but I mean, in some respects, though, I came out the other end, thank goodness, right, but there was a lot of things that I ignored about myself that I really needed to work on, things that I ignored about myself that I really needed to work on, and so I have matured a lot more since then and have been doing that work. I mean I just feel really, really lucky. I'm in a good spot.

Jon: 41:21

I'm happy to hear that A lot of people just got out of the biz altogether yeah, A catastrophic amount. And so I heard you say earlier talking about you're on a gig and you've got like a whole bunch of I'm using air quotes right now, new riggers, Green hands, Green hands yeah, no that's. I mean that starts to present its own kind of a problem. But I know that all of the trades have experienced that, because I dare say 50%, maybe nationwide, of everybody in the biz just got out.

Renee: 41:48

Yeah.

Jon: 41:49

Went and got straight jobs somewhere.

Renee: 41:51

And you know, and I want to say that you know, I was beating my head into a brick wall trying to break out into this touring world. It's really what I want. I dropped it, you know, and I saw things, some things that are more important, you know, and you let go of things and it kind of comes to you and I'm still like, kind of, I'm on that path, I'm not letting anyone, I'm relentless, like I'm not gonna let anyone tell me what I want, or I just have so many people that surround me there that have toured or whatever, and they're like you're not gonna like it and I'm like well, let me have the experience and I will tell you later if you're right or not. But just because you told me that, oh, it's bad and I don't you know this and that or whatever, you know, you're just quit trying to discourage me.

Renee: 42:42

You know why don't you try to uplift me? But you know, in the same thing, like you know, learning things that are important, I live alone now, which is great here, and I do have a partner and we have a place in Mexico. I go there and I decompress, oh, nice, and yeah, and we've got some land and we're going to Whereabouts, to Mexico, in Oaxaca, on the coast, oh wow.

Jon: 43:07

Yeah.

Renee: 43:08

I was just there for like all the. I was there for three months and I'll tell you what, like it seems like almost like the deeper I get in, the more like politics sometimes are thrown at me and like right before I left in November, I was in the middle of some of the biggest political. I don't know, that's funny, it's not even a word. I like the way it sounded.

Jon: 43:28

I biggest political, or I don't know. That's funny, it's not even a word.

Renee: 43:30

I like the way it sounded. I know political, political. I was in some huge politics. Like by accident I just showed up to work, I didn't want nothing to do with it, right. And now I'm faced with like this huge drama and I don't want to go into it.

Renee: 43:45

You know I don't want to like spread that all out there, but it was several things. You know I don't want to like spread that all out there, but it was several things all hitting me at once and it was like so stressful and and so I at least I have my own apartment and I can go to my apartment and like I can be like, okay, work's done. Now what am I going to do? I got painting, I'm going to paint. There's this book that I'm reading. I'm going to go to that to just kind of let go of all of that and it's extremely stressful. And then I went down to Mexico during the holidays and everything and stayed with my boyfriend and my cat. My cat lives there. It was just something that I needed. But yeah, living alone too for me and just kind of making that big separation between job and personal life is huge.

Jon: 44:38

I do have to call you out just for a moment, because earlier you were saying you know, I don't know what it is, I'm just kind of naturally cheerful and positive. But you didn't mention that you're spending at least three months a year on the beach in Oaxaca, so it's like you'd better be cheerful.

Renee: 44:54

Right. It only started in like during the pandemic, to be honest. So it really started in 2020. Yeah, so it's. I mean, it's a new, fresh step.

Jon: 45:05

What kind of advice would you offer to young people who might be thinking about looking at a career in event rigging?

Renee: 45:15

Hang in there.

Jon: 45:17

That's a pun.

Renee: 45:18

Right, yeah, definitely Hang in there. Well, I mean only if you know rope access. If it's something that you really want to do, I would say you kind of have to stay neutral with people. Take the knowledge where you can get it. I have had so many wonderful people, wonderful men that you know have mentored me. I really, really appreciate them a lot, and part of it is because I kind of just stay out of politics and I take people for the way they treat me.

Renee: 45:54

I try not to bring emotion to work. It was really hard in the beginning, like I would get so tired. You're like, how do you handle being tired and working? And you know I'd work two or three gigs in a row and I would be so exhausted Like I probably only had, you know, six hours of sleep in that time period. I'm so exhausted and you just cry. You just start crying. You start taking everything personal. You're like, oh, that person doesn't like me and I don't know why. And you know, oh, you know, and you start crying. Whatever, you're just exhausted. We're pretty. You know, to rigors can be pretty to the point.

Renee: 46:34

One thing that's important is terminology. So I'm getting to like the newbie part, but you know you have to be like, hey, push that point to the clevis or you're like your shackles spun. I mean, there's a lot of terminology, you know, you got to know that and like when someone's directing you to get something done. It is nothing personal, it is strictly we don't have time. It's a serious job. Just don't bring your feelings to work and just keep a good, positive attitude and just do the best you can and you'll get pushed forward quite a bit.

Jon: 47:09

You just made me think that in your trade in particular probably more so than others there's a certain amount of humility that's pretty much requisite.

Renee: 47:19

Oh yeah.

Jon: 47:20

Nothing's personal, because you can't fake it Right. You cannot BS your way through your job. People will die.

Renee: 47:28

Yeah.

Jon: 47:28

With that comes nobody knows everything every day, right? So you have to be able to take that, like you said, just take blunt direction and not internalize it.

Renee: 47:39

Yeah, exactly. And also when it comes to humility, to admit what you did wrong, yeah, and learn. Yes, now, I don't expect. Sometimes it can be a little bit of word on the street about oh, did you hear so-and-so dropped a shackle or whatever. But I mean overall like it's a learning experience for the whole community If a shackle dropped and everybody's like who dropped that shackle? Don't go hide behind somebody.

Jon: 48:08

Yeah, step forward, own it.

Renee: 48:09

Yeah, own it and then you can also share. Well, what was it that happened, that made that situation happen? And they always try to teach. It's not a matter of if, it's a matter of when, because gravity always wins. I've worked with a great handful of riggers that have never dropped anything, according to them, and that is admirable. And it's because it takes some great patience when you're working, because we want to be fast. The old saying is you know, we want to come in and get the job done and be at the bar drinking while we're still getting paid, because we get paid in minimums, right? So if we can get the job done in two hours, that gives us time to go down to the bar, have a couple beers with all our co-workers and laugh about it and be like, hey, I'm still getting paid. You know it comes with efficiency and being slow in the beginning, so it's like don't be afraid to be slow. Each step that you take is going to advance you leaps and bounds.

Jon: 49:12

What's that saying? I think it's like an army saying slow is steady and steady is fast.

Renee: 49:18

Yeah.

Jon: 49:19

Or something like that, yeah exactly.

Renee: 49:21

We had one of the companies that I've worked for in the past had like a stagehand Olympics right and one of them was who can get on their harness the fastest?

Jon: 49:30

right, I've wanted to do something like that. I had that idea a long time ago, so somebody actually does that.

Renee: 49:37

Well, they don't do it anymore. It was just one like company picnic that they had.

Jon: 49:41

Oh, okay, I see what you're saying. They decided to have that. I see what you're saying.

Renee: 49:50

So they put me in there and I was with, actually, a couple of new guys and me the first two guys. They're getting on their harnesses and they're just trying to put it on as fast as possible. They're trying to get their foot in the leg hole but it's not staying straight.

Renee: 50:03

They're having trouble and they're getting snagged on stuff. They get one leg in and then they're trying to put it over their head and they're like not getting their arm through the hole and they're just like struggling the whole time because they're trying to be super fast, right, and then they're like I felt like peppy lepew, oh that's awesome they're like okay, renee your turn.

Renee: 50:24

so I just like get the harness and I put it on kind of like a pair of pants, and then I just like put it over my head and get my arms in. I'm just slow totally slow.

Renee: 50:35

And then I think one of the indicators that you were done in this competition was that you had to take your lanyards and clip them to your side door, your side rings, and and then, like you know, if you had it on, you're done and I did. I mean I was so fast. Like you know, you had it on you're done and I did. I mean I was so fast, like, compared to them, but I looked like I had no effort at all and I won a hundred bucks.

Jon: 50:57

So that's fantastic. So like, there you go. I've always wanted to do an industry Olympics kind of thing like that. My special skill like if I were to imagine myself participating, I can pick up a quarter off of the ground with the forks of a 5k forklift. Oh, that's cool. I haven't done that in probably 10 or 15 years, but I know I could do it right now if I had a forklift oh my gosh.

Renee: 51:21

Well, I could tie a cherry stem in a knot with my tongue there you go.

Jon: 51:27

Same kind of overall importance in the big scheme of things, right.

Renee: 51:31

That was like a teenage, like sitting at Denny's skill, that's exactly what I did.

Jon: 51:38

A couple of fun just kind of fun questions for you. What's the highest elevation off the ground you've ever worked?

Renee: 51:46

I've probably been, I think, like 400 feet, 400?.

Jon: 51:50

Where.

Renee: 51:51

That's like Lumen Field. Is it that high? I think the arches are about four. Are they 400 feet? I don't know. They said something about that being 400 feet Because it was like where we put in the banners, so like there's a bunch of banners that are around the stadium that have, like Steve Largent's number and all that kind of stuff.

Renee: 52:17

They're on these huge frames and either, like, the championships change and they want to change the banner, you know, or they want to change the position of it. You know we'll take the whole frame down, take the banner down and put them back up. And oftentimes we're below, right below the arches, on that side of the roof, and we're doing rope access, and so they said that from there down to the field was about 200 feet.

Jon: 52:46

Oh yeah, I guess that's about right.

Renee: 52:48

So, yeah, and I mean I still work. You know I've never been fired from my companies, you know. But sometimes, you know, you go through these ebb and flow of who you're working for. Maybe you're growing in your career and you're getting a little more. You know you're giving more of the direction than doing the labor. And I did a lot of the maintenance at, like, lumen Field it's so hard to call it that I want to call it CenturyLink. It was CenturyLink mostly when I worked there, but we were doing the lifelines. There's a set of lifelines up there. We were like testing the anchors, and so I've been up there and it's pretty amazing. And one day I had to go up there and it was right after an earthquake and I was like, oh, should we be going up there? What if there's a bigger earthquake?

Renee: 53:35

You know, and my boss is like man, it's like the safest place to be you know?

Jon: 53:39

Yeah, that's probably true, being relatively new construction, yeah Well, it's a big sidewalk.

Renee: 53:47

But Do you have a favorite gig that you ever worked on of all time? One time I worked Soundgarden at the Gorge and I got to run Spotlight on Chris Cornell. That was really fun. I really do enjoy doing the banner changes at Lumen Field because I love. I mean I feel out of all the parts of rigging, I feel like being on rope. I feel most comfortable but it can be some of the hardest work. You're on rope, you get to repel, you get to jug up you know that's all great.

Renee: 54:22

But then you got to drill into the side of a building with a big giant drill and through cement and you're pushing yourself away from the building. So that's another whole nother challenge. But I do like doing those. Those are fun and the reveals. You know, when they reveal it on television sometimes we'll be there to like do that. They don't see us, we're not there.

Renee: 54:44

But I really like Jane's Addiction. One time I was working them and I was ready for the loadout and I was upstage and they were singing Jane Says and this is at the Gorge too and I could just see like the whole crowd going wild, singing along and I'm like it's just from my younger self. You know that music came out and it really touches me. You know came out and it really touches me. You know it's really hard to say like my favorite. I mean a lot of times it's the experience afterwards seeing the band or getting to be in that experience there. But like the favorite, like work, I mean yeah, I think rappelling and doing the banners would be some of my favorite. Oh, you know what? The weekend Say more man. I just I had more.

Renee: 55:35

Like it was great to be in that sense of community, with all my co-workers, you know, traveling from place to place, and then we were treated really well. We had really nice hotels. You know we're at the stadiums, the rig, you know I got to climb every day and see the view and the different stadiums and the challenge of even just getting to a shower after you're done. Where's the women's shower? I finally nailed it.

Renee: 56:05

I was like all right, the girls showers are here. I, you know, before here, before that loadout, on the loadout day in the morning when I arrive, I find that first. So then after I know, right, where to go, right, I love my artist. The weekend I fell in love with the music and my heart was in it, my heart's in the work and my coworkers. The last song that we closed with was Blinding Lights. We'd be all backstage like dancing and singing along and stuff like yeah, this is a loadout song, we're going to go, we're getting on the bus after this and just it was amazing and then seeing the crowd and how much they really enjoyed it.

Jon: 56:48

And then seeing the crowd and how much they really enjoyed it. Have you gotten to the point?

Renee: 56:56

yet where you've taken a newbie under your wing, so to speak, in terms of a mentor role.

Renee: 56:58

Yes, I mean, I have several times, but it's not anything that I note to myself. So it's funny after years. It's really because, you know, you don't look at yourself that way in always and you know, I like I was um, a second on um, and what that means is like there'll be a head rigger and then he'll have his second and I was a second on beyond wonderland, out at the gorge and at the end of the show, like we're the riggers, we're getting the rigging done for lighting and audio and video and all of that stuff. And then we get done, you know, and we're all like the whole production, we're all like, yay, we got it done, we made it through. And we kind of have a little party afterwards and one of the guys comes up to me and he's like Renee, don't you remember when you taught me this, this and this? And I'm like no, like I, you know, makes me stop and think, oh, people are looking at me, wow.

Renee: 57:59

You know, Okay, and I actually have gotten that a few times and I and it makes me feel good about myself I'm glad that I can help and people are learning and becoming better at what they do. Yeah.

Jon: 58:17

Indeed. So you're walking into an ice cream shop and you're going to get a cone with two scoops. What are the flavors?

Renee: 58:27

Oh, caramel and chocolate. Or how about chocolate and coconut, with maybe some caramel drizzle?

Jon: 58:35

Which one goes on top.

Renee: 58:38

The coconut.

Jon: 58:41

That's one of my favorite questions. I ask everybody. Never gotten the same answer twice. Oh awesome, Renee. It's been a delightful conversation. Thanks for making the time today.

Renee: 58:52

Oh yeah, Thank you for having me All call One hour till doors.